the thing is, there's all this stuff in the Bible that Jesus says that totally ruins american-style christianity.
just ruins it.
ruins it.
so, when we live in a country, among a church that is so largely and deeply false... how do we live out our MEMBERSHIP with the church in our land?
Look at how nehemiah prayed,
and daniel...
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how about Ezra or Haggai
ReplyDeleteMan, Lew, I am definitely tracking with you. That's what I mean when I say I like some of the message. Paul Washer is right on when he is talking about the american church. We do need repentance. We do need to know and understand that there is a hell and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Absolutely, but we don't need to live like we don't want to go to hell, we need to live like we are built for heaven. This is where we may diverge a little. I believe we are wounded and tend toward sin, I believe we are still basically good, as in our nature was created by God as good, thus it remains good, but seriously wounded. I would not use the words depraved, although we are capable of depravity. Our woundedness does leave an eternal separation between us and God that only Christ, God's son, God himself could bridge. Thus the possibility that we can be saved and live with Him forever is pure Grace. Thats what trips me up about him. He seems to be saying its all works in one sense. And then in another he wants it to be faith alone.
ReplyDeleteI do like what he saying about holiness/set apart and really living like we are following Him, but at the same time, would he befriend and walk with the sinner? I just didn't feel that or hear that in the message.
So in the end, yes there is a hell, I'm sure people are going to it, but the scriptures say that he died for all, especially those who would follow him. So tell people the straight truth but with the WHOLE gospel. Ya feel me? Pretty sure we are on the same page on this. We need hard preaching, but not hardness for the sake of being hard.
I apologize in advance for the length of this but wanted to be somewhat thorough. Like I said before yep the church here in the west is a mess but why is it a mess?
ReplyDeleteI really don’t think it is a mess because there is not enough preaching on hell. We have some KJV only Baptist churches down here that love to preach on hell. I really haven’t seen growth and health and “revival” in these places. I know the prosperity gospels folks speak on hell also but I don’t see health there either.
An interesting side-note, I was reading back thru Peter’s great proclamation of the gospel during Pentecost and he never brings up hell. Now I do believe in hell and believe some people are headed there but I don’t think that is why the church is a mess.
As for the “fear of the Lord” I got to say I am not “afraid” of God anymore or at least most of the time. I am reverent towards him and in awe of all He does, or the stuff that my eyes are open too anyway but not afraid. I really believe we Christians living under the New Covenant are not called to be afraid. It goes without saying there are numerous times that I put my face in the rug and repent for things I have or haven’t done but not because I am afraid of Him or of hell.
Check out 1John 4:18-19 where he is writing about having confidence to stand before God on the day of judgment because of the love of God. Also Heb 4:16 and John 15:15.
As for the prayers of Nehemiah and Daniel that you reference I wonder if they would have been different if they were operating under the New Covenant. Jesus taught us to pray, “Our Father” which was radically different and I would imagine many thought it to be incredibly irreverent.
I love what John said about living like we are built for heaven and that we were created basically good and all the rest of that stuff. His grace is truly amazing and He put it out there for His glory that is a the New Covenant reality. We didn’t deserve it but He did it anyway. I think of the times you and I have had opportunity to minister to some of the pastors who were stuck in legalistic stuff…man that was humbling and beautiful. Grace setting people free.
I think a lot of Christianity we see is a return, at least to some degree, to the old covenant. This is what I hear in Paul W’s preaching.
What I do think is wrong with the church is we have departed from the basic teaching of Jesus. The sermon on the mount type of stuff about giving up life and finding abundant life. Lew, this is the stuff that your life has really helped me see. Giving up all and finding yet more. This is where we have missed it. The stuff preached from the pulpit largely doesn’t call people to live this way. It is simply about making a person’s life a little better when in reality the only way to get the abundant life is to kill your current life. Personally, I don’t think this necessarily means a person is headed to hell but I do think they are still in tremendous bondage and have not yet entered into real life and that is sad.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. God does not change and He is to be feared. What I have learned is that the fear of the Lord is different from all other types of fear because it propels you towards the arms of the Father. He is to be feared and He is our safe place. Old covenant, new covenant He is still God and His judgments are good and true. There most certainly is fear of God in the new covenant. Paul feared God not men. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Furthermore, if we could see/experience God in His full glory I am certain that Holy Fear would be the first thing we would feel and rightfully so. Revelation14: 6-7.
ReplyDeleteBut personally, I think the church is a mess because it is friends with the world. We are mere babes and we ought to be mature. We are blown here and there by every wind of teaching. We do love what God hates because we ought to hate our very lives, to be worthy of Him. We are so stubborn to give our lives to Him. And as you said that is where abundant life comes in. To live is Christ, To die is gain. Which leads me to pray as Ezra did and live as Paul says to press forward forgetting the past.
Sarah, love how you say the fear of the Lord propels you towards the arms of Father. Right on.
ReplyDeleteTo be clear, I don't believe God changes from O.T. to N.T. but I do believe the way He is able to relate to us has changed because of the cross which ushers in the N.C.
I also see "fear of the Lord" in the N.T. but I don't believe, in Christ, we are to be afraid of God but rather it means a reverence or awe. When Peter pulls in the big catch and he realizes who Jesus is he falls to his face. The first words out of Jesus mouth are, "don't be afraid". Likewise in Revelations 1 when John sees Jesus he falls on his face and Jesus responds, "don't be afraid". Psalms says we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" I don't think God was "afraid" when he made you. Also in Is 11:3 it says about the coming Messiah, "he will delight in the fear of the Lord". Again I don't think Jesus is "afraid" of himself or his Father.
I am writing in the context of "in Christ". If you have rejected Jesus than the only thing left is the wrath of God therefore be afraid be very afraid. Fear..terror
At the presence of God does our flesh draw back in fear...yes, does our spirit leap for joy at the site of our Father...yes. Check out Rm 8:1-17
Proverbs says to fear the Lord is to hate evil...yep.
Agree with what you are saying about why church is a mess...I think that is basically the same thing I was trying to say.