END: Something toward which one strives; a goal. See Synonyms at intention: ambition, aspiration, course, desideratum, design, desire, direction, end, intent, intention, mark, object, objective, plan, purpose, scheme, target, wish
MEANS: means (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A method, a course of action, or an instrument by which an act can be accomplished or an end achieved.
means (used with a pl. verb)
Money, property, or other wealth: You ought to live within your means.
Great wealth: a woman of means.
(from dictionary.com)
go on fireonthealtar.com and listen to "revival hymn"... "revival hymn"...
listen to the part where the guy starts talking about humanism... go to MINUTE 13:50 of the track. that's the part.
minute 13:50.
listen to this. Is the preaching of the Church you go to presenting God as an end or as a means? How important is that to you? How does this issue impact the Church in the world/the impact of the Church on the world. More importantly, since God isn't our means to impact the world, and impacting the world isn't really our primary goal...
How does this issue impact the PLEASURE OR DISPLEASURE OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER with our service to Him while we are on the earth? When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith?
are we amazed at grace, or are we ticked that our latte is too cold?
God wants much more than our "A Game"!
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FROM MIKE IN FLORIDA:
ReplyDeleteHey man, I look forward to talking this out with you a bit more. I listened
to the fireonthealtar thing. I need to listen thru it another time. It is
hard for me to focus in when it is a dude yelling at me. I'm just not much
on that style anymore. "Take a deep breath you are ok" comes to mind. :-)
I totally agree that this message of "climb the ladder of success" it is all
about me/you is self-centerdness the original sin, the core of all sin. If
this is how you define humanism you are right it is demonic.
There is "Christian humanism" though that I think is healthy that I also
think is greatly missed. It basically says that there is a worth to human
life. Father thought human life was valuable enough to send Jesus to redeem
it. The sermon on the mount spoke to Christian humanism. The message I hear
you preach, with your life, is Christian humanism. It is not self-centered
it is not even people centered but it does recognize and embrace the worth
of human life. Pro-life far beyond just abortion right.
When I listen to the fireonthealtar stuff there is something that just
doesn't sit well with me. I don't think it is just the yelling. Maybe I am
wrong, please pray for me because I don't want to miss God...really. It just
sounds like there is some kind of self-righteous lack of love thing going
on. Again, maybe I am wrong.
Speaking of sheep: I like the blog dialogue going on between you and
Jeremiah. I think it is healthy and you are handling it well. I think this
struggle along with the one above is really good stuff to work out. Could it
be what you see in church x is simply the mammon spirit alive and well?
Could it be that the gospel they speak is pure, hence the changed lives etc.
but it isn't being delivered as powerfully and effectively because of the
mammon spirit that coats it? How does the message Jesus preached change if
he came as a prince living in the big palace uptown? The words, miracles
everything is the same, heck even the cross, but he was just the rich
whiteboy dressed in an argyle shirt and dockers drinking a latte.
I think it is possible to have money and follow Jesus, granted EXTREMELY
difficult and hear me in that I see that as entirely different than money
having you and following Jesus. Different than spending our lives pursuing
money and churching it on weekends.
There could be something off-center/off-focus in the (FOTA) thing I had you listen to. Seems like the truth can be compromised in our presentation of the doctrine of "total depravity".
ReplyDeleteWe are totally depraved, totally beloved, and possessors of an EXtrinsic worth, as well as an INtrinsic worth.
That is, we are wonderfully made in the Image of God: INtrinsic (built-in) worth.
We are also Beloved--O so dearly Beloved, beyond all reason or worth that we have in ourselves: EXtrinsic worth.
Our INtrinsic worth is totally eclipsed, surpassed (but NOT ERASED) by our debt of sin and fundamental depravity (constant leaning of our flesh, away from God). We got this problem from old Adam.
Our worth-deficit is super-justified by Christ, who is the embodiment of Love Himself, on the cross. we now stand in peace with God through Christ. We are grafted in, beloved and secure, provided we stand firm in this hope, not giving way to despair, discouragement, or deception.
These are the real enemy of Christ Followers, today. Christians... (just can't get used to that--must not be on my "A" game)
MIKE IN FLORIDA AGAIN:
ReplyDeleteDude, I like how you break this down especially what we stand firm in. That
is helpful. I really believe one of the biggest things if not the biggest
thing we have to guard against is falling in to self-righteousness either in
pride or at the other end in discouragement and despair thinking I have to
do something more, I have to make up for my shortcomings etc.
As for the FOTA stuff, maybe it is me. It's just that sometimes that kind of
thinking makes me feel like God has an identity crisis or something and
somehow I think God is pretty sure of himself ya know? I have more thoughts
here but will save them for now. I want to dig into it a bit. There is
something that really turns me off about this whole line of thinking but I
have really been praying and dwelling on it because I am not solid about my
stance. I may need to repent.
that stuff is intensely solid, much of it. very harsh, but listen to the word of the prophets in scrip: not condemning, but incisively true.
ReplyDeleteit's easy to gaing a following by preaching bitterness and condemnation. That's cheap talk, and plentiful. But preaching in the same way as Peter, as he confronted the citizens of Jerusalem...
Think of the Letter of 1st John. We're ready to talk the love stuff, but looka t what he says about righteousness! look at how darkness/wickedness is opposed by TRUTH, and how the truth is always
to be spoken in love, but in certain circumstances (like our whole generation of church leadership), truth is incisive--it cuts in and hurts...
Look at Hebrews 3 where it talks of the truth like a 2-edged sword--exposing thoughts and intentions... swords, at least good ones, are sharp, bro.
I had a lot of repenting to do--that is, a lot of sharpening to do... and still do. iron on iron...
MORE TO MIKE FROM LEW:
ReplyDeleteI would comment to your perceptions of the
preachers of the FOTA clip I recommended. I'll Wikipedia "Christian Humanism". Why don't you, too. Let's get terms defined there for the sake of productivity and precision.
I think the proper measurement for the FOTA clips is Scripture, Scripture, Scripture. Not just "is it in the Bible?" but "does it jive with the Whole Message of the Scriptures--God's History of Salvation-Messaging". They don't all do that, but the clips I
frequent are SOLID stuff.
I also think on the apostolic history that we have to look at: men like John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield and the like... Going back a bit, we've got the first round of apostles, and their ministries. So... this is a good line of men who preached righteousness...
Look at the message of the Scripture, see if the preacher is jiving with the Spirit of it. Being wary of bandits who masquerade with hype and condemnation... this is why overseers who are faithful in their service are accorded double honor, Mike. This is a serious, important
task, and involvement in intense warfare for minds/souls...
And also, don't judge peoples motives. That's not our concern. If they preach Christ, no matter what the motive, the apostle Paul doesn't sweat them. But if they preach another jesus, he calls them
eternally condemned (anathema). See that? We're on the lookout for counterfeits, and they're raising our kids!!! Looking at their motives will really muddy the waters. Keep it objective/submitted to the revealed scripture... Stay sharp on that. That's what gave Dodd so much power over all you guys--he just told you that someone was doing the right thing with the wrong motives, or that they were given to wrong motives in some way, painting people with his brush... easy to fall to if you don't hold that other line... looking at the content and components of the Message...
"...rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
Then we "need not be ashamed".
Quoting Lew from Above:
ReplyDelete"I also think on the apostolic history that we have to look at: men like John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield and the like... Going back a bit, we've got the first round of apostles, and their ministries. So... this is a good line of men who preached righteousness..."
Dude Lew, I gotta call you on this one-you said "apostolic history" I am not getting into our discussions of "apostolic succession" in this post, but would like to mention that John Wesley is almost 1500 years after what is considered the apostolic period proper. You and I are generally not so proper, but getting terms straight is huge, as you noted above. There is alot of time that I see this gap in theologies/ecclesiologies and other ologies concerning God, Revelation, Scripture, etc. We would all be benefited by looking to the men of the Apostolic period and just after to see how the Church has always read the scriptures, how they preached, how they lived, how they denounced, how they built up. I have been chilling on this since our talk about Church History the other night. LEt me here the thoughts...
No doubt, JOHN! Solid comment. I knew my ignorance as I wrote that post. Only thinking about a few of the men who walk in apostolic anointing (accomplishing the work of apostles by the Spirit's anointing and gifting, like the apostles of the Bible), I left out guys like John Huss, Zinzendorf, and the Martyrs of the Early Church... I left out a ton of guys, since my study of Church History is so lacking... I left out Huguenots, Anabaptists, Irish Catholics, Messianic Jews...alll kinds of folk who have carried on the work of apostles...
ReplyDeleteI left out Paul, Silas, Timothy, Titus, Luke, and the 12... I left out Jesus the only Apostle who gets a capital A.
I promise to deepen my study of Church History, all.
JESSE GUSSE COMMENTS (not a blogger, so had to email it)
ReplyDeleteWell Lew, since I can't comment on your blog cause I'm not an official "blogger" I'll have to comment via email.
I always go to the grubbykupp blog but not the lewminator. I finally went to the lewminator blog and saw your post on the whole humanism thing. And then the comments back and forth between you and mike.
This discussion is EXACTLY what has been on my mind for the last few months. Mike, you and I barely started talking about this stuff at Bubaloos yesterday.
That Fire On The Altar compilation (actually done by one of my friends at the evangelism boot camp) is as you know a variety of speakers. But the part you mentioned is Paris Reidhead and that snippet comes from an hour long teaching of his called "Ten Shekels and a Shirt". And that Mike, is the teaching I told you is the best pulpit teaching I have ever heard. I don't say that flippantly.
It was also a very timely teaching for me to hear. Especially as I struggle with the perceived "humanism" i see in overseas missions. As I was deciding on India, this teaching was my anchor in grounding me for what my REAL purpose is there (and here). I am not going there for them, i am not going there for the girls, i am not going to the abortion clinic every week for the babies...... I am going where I am going to glorify an amazing God who truly deserves it. And God doesn't send me for their sake, he sends me for His sake. What's amazing about God is His sake is one of Love and Righteousness. So in the proccess of going for God's sake a biproduct is helping humans. But our motive MUST not be misplaced. And with so much evil we see face to face in this world, it's easy to get our motives out of whack.
I challenge you to listen to the whole teaching. Ten Shekels and a Shirt. GREAT STUFF. Somewhere in my spirit I knew these things, but couldn't express them and they were eating me up. And when i came accorss "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" it was like someone was taking everything I was trying to say but didn't know how....and said it for me.
Thanks for talking with me yesterday mike......I know it's a long drive for you, but if you knew how much worth i put in our time together I think the drive is negligible :)
can't wait to meet you and spend time up in cinnci Lew.
take care brothers
jesse
ps. here is a link for the teaching
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=10180222445
Man, there is a lot going on here. Lots I can comment on. This is a really good thread. I'll just make a couple of comments now and then more later.
ReplyDeleteLew I get where you are coming from with not getting caught up in motives but paying attention to motives are important. Check out some of the below verses especially the last one. Also think about your argument in your blog about "A-game". What God is speaking out against in the prophet books you mention is man's religion. They worship me with their lips but their hearts are far from me. What is that but "motives"?
Pro 21:2 We justify our actions by appearances; GOD examines our motives.
Jer 11:20 Then I said, "GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies, you're a fair judge. You examine and cross-examine human actions and motives.
Gal 4:17 They are zealous for you, but not well; but they only desire to shut you out, that you be zealous to them
Rev 2:23 The bastard offspring of their idol-whoring I'll kill. Then every church will know that appearances don't impress me. I x-ray every motive and make sure you get what's coming to you.
Jesse, dude I'll never complain about the drive to spend time with you. It is well worth it. I appreciate the kind words. I don't want to make too many comments until I listen to the teaching you asked me to listen to about a month ago. I want to hear it and be fair. If you recommend it I am sure it is worth listening too.
ReplyDeleteI will make a couple comments though :-)
I need to question your take on the proper motives. To go only for God's sake. To go for His glory. On one hand I get that. But, I also hear what sounds like a closed heart to the people. It is hard for me to put a finger on it but it SOUNDS like lack of love. I want to be careful though. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Jesus gave us a new command "love one another". He commands us to love God, love our brother, love our neighbor, love our enemy.
He also calls us to seek justice, stand up against injustice, care for those in need. We have to do all of these out of Love. Love for Him because He first loved us.
Do I do it for His sake for His glory? Jesus did come to bring glory to His father for sure. Man, maybe we are saying the same thing but just speaking different languages. When I hear it the way it was put on FOTA it really sounds to me like Dad is having an identity crisis and he needs me to stroke his ego. I am sure that is not what you are saying.
This is why I do what I do, my motivation: Dad loves me. He loves me so much that when I was dead and hopelessly lost He sent his son to pay my penalty and bring me back into right relationship with Him, a spirit of sonship. He is my dad and I am His child, His beloved. Because of this incredible love He has for me I can love Him back, I can love you, I can love my neighbor I can even love my enemy. Because of His love I can resist sin and if I fail to resist I want to repent because He loves me and I love Him. When I repent I know He forgives me because He is my Father. I don't have to grovel for a certain amount of time. I would never expect one of my boys to grovel for my forgiveness when they do something wrong, and my love is a drop in the ocean of God's love. Because of His love I can go and serve others, love others, tell others about Him.
If you are still hanging with me allow me to add possibly the coolest part...Grace. Because He loves me so much he empowers me with His Holy Spirit. He gives me the grace to be able to say no to sin, to be able to love Him back even though it is an incomplete love. I think this is what Lew is talking about when he pushes back on the "A-game" mentality. My A-game sucks compared to the Grace of God that He freely gives. Paul said it best, when I give up my A-game then He becomes strong.
Is all the Glory His...absolutely!
I guess I had a few more comments than I thought.
Peace,
Mike
FOR MIKE RE:MOTIVES
ReplyDeletein almost all of those scriptures it seems to me that God is the one who is judging the motives and intention of our hearts.
from the others, I don't get anything that puts my judgment of others' motives in a primary place in evaluating doctrine... and more than doctrine, as well--the practise of doctrine. evaluation of public preaching, praying, teaching...a prophecy...
It seems to me that we are to be VERY concerned about motive, as you indicate there. That's solid. We need to be preoccupied with our own motives, to some extent, praying with Ps. 19:
"May the the words of my mouth AND the meditation of my heart be acceptable to You, LORD, my rock and my Redeemer."
But in Matthew 7, Jesus warns us to know false prophets by their "fruit". Weird, huh? What does he mean by "fruit"? We get a "fruit list" in Galatians 5 that contains all kinds of really bad sounding stuff. That is, bad sounding BEHAVIORS.
So, it's true that motive is Essential! We can't help our brothers with a plank in our eyes... But when it comes to Leaders who oversee the flock of God, we are to be on our guard against (Eph. 20) "savage wolves" who are truly present and active today.
One warning, though. I see in Rev. 2 the Ephesian church--she excelled in this. She could smell a fake a mile away, and she had (Matt. 24:12) lost her first love. So, we who handle this truth ought to do so in fear of becoming judges of the law, but not doers of it (James 4:11).
I like what you are saying here in re:motives. It goes without saying that we should always check our own heart first and be concerned with it's health. I could say more but would be repeating you.
ReplyDeleteFrom Jesse:
ReplyDeleteEnormity of our sins. Grace is, as you said, truly amazing.
Thanks for this discussion. Mike, maybe we are saying similar things and just highlighting a different part of the bible as Rich Mullins says it. Maybe we are saying different things (its about time, we agree way too much :) I re-listened to Ten Shekels and a Shirt last night. I love what Paris reidhead says about Christ deserving the reward of His suffering. The two young missionaries who left everything and sold themselves into a life of slavery.....not for humanistic reasosn, but with the prime reason of spreading the Gospel so that Christ would obtain more reward for his suffering.
I don't want to sound closed off to the people. I just know if I go for the right reasons, to glorify my God, then the other things (love, service, battling injustice, etc) will all fall into place. That's what is amazing about our King. He does want us to go for His sake....but His sake is one of justice and love....shown vividly at the cross.
I dunno, I don't want to talk in cicrles and say the same things. I just think we need to do all things for the glory of God. Why do you love your enemy? Becasue the enemy is nice to you? Because you can get something out of it? Of course not, you love our enemy because Christ tells you to. Out of obedience and glorification of God do we do such crazy and foolish things as love our enemy.
God, over and over and over, demands to be worshipped. He demands to be glorified. He demands to be put above ALL else. And He is the only one who TRULY deserves it. I wouldn't call what Paris says as stroking an ego of an identity crisis dad. I think it is giving demanded worship to a God who deserves it. If it were anyone else requesting it ...ya...i'd say there is an identity crisis. But when God requests it....He's quite sure of His identity and definately deserves it.
The "A-game" mentality stuff....yea....that's....nuts. I think I know where it comes from. We have such a hard time here being simple men and women of faith that by faith do this and by faith do that. We want to see big things, but go about it the wrong way. We build mega churches, try special programs, etc. etc. We get to a point where we bring our "A-Game" because we don't trust that the real power of God lies in our simple faith.
take care brothers. enjoy this day of rest.